329. What If It Wasn’t You? Internalized Blame with Maggie Reyes

Hey, I'm Amanda Hess.

I'm a certified life coach.

But what you need to know is I'm a sensitive woman just like you, and I'm going to help you understand yourself better so that you can approach your life differently and feel really good about it.

Let's go.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the podcast.

Today I have somebody that I'm bringing on as a guest that has been a recurring guest.

It's somebody that has been so important to me on my journey.

She is the reason why I'm a coach.

She's also the reason why I can be happily married.

And Maggie is so smart, she is so educated, and she really lives into this work.

So today we are welcoming Maggie.

She is a feminist marriage coach.

I consider her to be my mentor, my friend, the person that helped me change my entire life.

Welcome back to the podcast, Maggie.

I'm so excited to be here.

And one of my favorite things I've been thinking about a lot lately is the long term effect of coaching.

If you're listening to this podcast, you obviously have an interest in proving your life and think you do things.

And it's like we work together and we haven't worked together in years with a ripple effect of the things that we did are still present in today.

And that's true for me with my coaches as well.

That things that have shaped me and molded how I think, think.

Sometimes in the moment we have a problem.

We're like, oh, I should probably get help with this.

But we don't really see the long term.

And one thing I just want to speak to, if you love Amanda's podcast, you're thinking about working with her or going deeper into one of her programs.

Like, she is a person who doesn't.

Wait, is it doesn't walk the talk.

She talks the walk.

She talks the things she has, like the real deal, things of life.

And I always love when I know people and see people like that.

And I just am privileged to know the depth of what that is.

So if anybody's just wondering, I just wanted to share that.

So thank you for having me.

I'm excited to dig in.

Thank you.

Yeah, you know what?

I. I have a lot of conversations with people about authenticity, and it's really interesting how women will consider themselves to not be authentic.

And it's really, it's fascinating to me because it's not what this podcast is going to be about today, but it kind of Is because I'm like, what is authenticity?

And I'm like, authenticity is just living your experience.

Yes.

That's what authenticity is.

It's just whatever you're living is authentic.

Now, if you're speaking with authenticity, I think if you're being an expert on something, if you're going to walk into a room and say, I'm an expert on something, lots of people can say they're an expert expert.

They can be book read.

And I think that in, like, the traditional sense of mental health and things like that, a lot of times that is what is going on.

And there's that, and then there's being more than book read.

There's.

I've taken these tools and I've applied it to my life, and I have applied them again and again and again, and I've really seen what works and what doesn't.

And then what's beautiful is when you become a coach, you can apply it for your clients and you can also see what's working for them.

Yes.

And that's, I think, something that you and I are both good at because it's what makes a really great coach.

Yes.

Is to meet someone where they are, I think.

Yes.

Agreed.

Yeah.

And have a real understanding of, here's how this truly works.

This isn't just, it should work like this.

And if it doesn't work like this for you, there's something wrong with you.

Which is exactly the point of the episode.

Right.

So many messages we get as women is, if it doesn't work for you, there must be something wrong with you.

And then we believe that story, and then we take that story and we make it our story.

Right.

Which is not our fault.

Right.

It's just our experience.

Right.

And then.

But the truth is, maybe that thing, whether it's the way the job is structured, whether it's the way the relationship is going, whether it's the way something is set up in your life that isn't working.

Maybe that thing is the thing that needs to change and not you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the reason why I asked you to be on the podcast was because you had posted about internalized blame.

Yeah.

And it spoke to me right away.

It's such a succinct way of talking about something that I see coming up for so many women, including myself, all of the time.

And so maybe you could just talk a little bit about what internalized blame is.

Is.

Yeah.

So I had just been coaching that week.

So many women with different problems at work, at home, whatever.

And the coaching was always like, what did I do?

What did I do?

But how did I.

How did I do this?

And we have to understand there's a difference between personal responsibility, which is expansive and powerful and moves you forward because it shows you where your choices are, and internalize blame, which is when anything goes wrong.

Something must be wrong with me.

And my one example I could give you for sure, personal example, is my entire career.

I don't think it ever changed.

Even when I left corporate, when I had to have an unexpected, unplanned meeting, I always was reviewing my week.

What did I do?

Did I mess something up?

Oh, my.

I never thought it was, like, the meeting to, like, get my promotion or, like, to get good news or whatever.

And I can tell you, my entire career, it was never a bad thing.

20 Years, 15 years that I worked in corporate, it was never what I feared it was.

But that's an example of how we internalize blame.

We're like, something happened, and it must have been me versus something happened.

Let's get curious.

We can ask what was my role in it, which is the personal responsibility part, versus going to shame and going to this dark place where also we feel terrible and we are not in our power.

We're not in our resourcefulness.

We're just in our.

Like, I must be awful.

There's no solution because I am me versus something happened.

It's fixable.

What are the steps we need to take?

Yeah, but it's so pervasive.

Like, that's the thing that is so interesting, because I even shared on this podcast not that long ago, maybe the last one, or the one before, I was talking about how when I was younger, I was apparently accident prone.

And so to the point where my family labeled it as doing an Amanda.

Oh, my God.

So if you spilled something on your shirt, if you fell down and hurt yourself, if you did anything that was like a mistake, an error, or also if you got hurt doing it, that was doing an Amanda.

And I was talking about how that frames how you look at yourself in adulthood and how damaging it actually is.

Yes.

So damaging.

First of all, I'm just sorry you went through that.

That sucked and was not okay.

And I just want to say that out loud.

That was not okay.

It's so interesting that's your example, too, because my mom used to tell me in Spanish, so it sounds worse.

Always more serious.

It sounds worse.

She used to say, no tienes sentido delimite, which is, you don't have a sense of limits.

And she would say it as an Insult to me.

And it's like if I wanted to extend our time doing something or like talk more or have another bite or anything where it was like I wanted more of what was happening and I took it as the insult that it was.

When I was a kid, I was.

It was not pleasant to know that.

And then now I'm in my 50s, I find out I had ADHD.

Like, I've had it my whole life.

It didn't just appear in my 50s, I've always had it.

And I find out about things like proprioception, which I always say wrong, but when you bump into things, it is literally because your spatial awareness of where you end and things begin, it's like a glitch in your brain, which millions of people have.

Right.

And it's like that, that is what was happening.

It was a thing that was a real, genuine human thing.

And imagine, like getting ridiculed.

If you had cancer, nobody would say, oh, pulling in.

Amanda can't believe she's sick and in the hospital again.

We would, like, be so mad at that person.

But then the things we don't understand, instead of being curious and seeing what they are, people, well meaning people, will put it on us and then we'll keep it as if it's ours.

And then we'll feel terrible about it, and then we'll make up more stories that make us feel terrible about it.

And forever in ad nauseam, like, I think about, you know, I remember once falling down the stairs at my apartment complex and like, was one of those moments, you know, back in the day.

Yeah.

When you had a pager and a cell phone.

The day.

Yes.

And so I'm pulling out my pager because I'm getting a page.

I'm going down the stairs.

I'm probably late for work.

I'm probably 21, you know, missed all the stairs, cement stairs.

Landed on my knees, bounced, screamed, didn't rip my pants.

Which tells you about a lot of things, about the pants I was wearing.

And they were basically plastic, I guess.

And the thing is how much shame I felt in that moment.

Like how embarrassed you are that you fell down.

Yeah.

Being embarrassed to fall down is, I think, an example of internalized blame.

Yeah, A hundred percent.

Because humans fall right.

Balance is not a steady.

Balance is like you could have an ear infection.

You could have my issue of the proprioception.

You could have so many different things where humans just fall.

So we're ashamed of humaning.

Yeah.

God forbid you bump into something, which, by the way, I also do So I feel this on, and I get bruises everywhere because I bruise like a banana.

You, me and Julia Roberts interview about this.

And she's like, oh, my gosh, I bump into things all the time.

I'm you and me, Julia, you, me.

I mean, like, just like Julia.

And also, who cares?

But also, we've been told that it's something wrong with us.

Yeah.

And that's the thing.

And so we get that messaging and it's so inundated, like, it's baked into our culture.

And it's really fascinating.

I've just been going down this rabbit hole of it's not just what you think, although that is a big part of it.

It's also, it's being reconfirmed to you in the conversations that you're having with your friends.

It is being reconfirmed to you in the things that you consume on social media.

It's everywhere, all the time.

It is everywhere all the time.

And I'm not a scholar, so I don't know if men go through this, but I would suspect that it's much less and it looks different.

And nothing against men.

I love men, but I don't like the patriarchal construct we live in which says things should be designed for men, things should be medical research only done on men because women's hormones fluctuate.

So we don't need to know.

We need to know more because it fluctuates.

I mean, five different things depending on which fluctuation it is.

Right.

So this idea, like, you're not enough, you're not okay, you don't belong.

Right.

And then when we're somewhere and something happens, we're like, oh, I must have done it wrong.

What did I do?

How did, how was it?

Me is reinforced in the sort of patriarchal structure that we live in.

And again, I, I, I'm a feminist who loves men, which is, I don't think they're evil.

I don't think that they're like, I mean, some of them are evil, but some women are evil too.

You know what I mean?

Some people are just evil.

Some people are just evil.

But I do need to say, like, if you haven't, who you who are listening to us hasn't considered, oh, we actually live in a patriarchal environment.

Why is a woman the default parent?

That's just our assumption.

That's just from the beginning.

Right.

There are certain things.

Why do women make less money than men?

19Th rate in our Lifetime.

Right.

So that when I'm talking about patriarchal structures, I'm not talking about a guy who's mean.

I'm talking about this structure that we live in and internalize.

Blame is partly, not completely, but partly rooted in misogyny, in violence against women.

Like emotional violence, thought violence, so to speak.

The way that we think about what our role should be or could be and how we limit ourselves.

All these stories, right?

It's like I was on Facebook, just scrolling, and this thing came out, this woman talking about her neck and all these things she was going to do to make her neck better.

And I just had this moment.

I was like, have I ever seen a dude be like, my neck is so important.

I really want it to look amazing.

Like it just doesn't cross their mind, you know?

Yeah.

So anyway, those are just examples.

Just to.

When I'm giving you examples and stories and things, this is a mindset that I'm giving it from, and I just wanted to give that context to everybody.

I think it's important.

I remember having a conversation with a friend not that long ago, it was maybe six or seven years ago, and she said to me, I'm not a feminist.

And I just looked at her and I was like, I'm confused.

I don't think you know what the word means, because everybody should be a feminist because what it means is equality.

Yeah.

And so to not be a feminist means that you don't believe that we should be equal.

That's to me, that.

To me, that's the definition in my mind.

And so it's not about being above.

Better than proving that we're like, no, it's equality.

We should believe in equality.

Now, you might not like the methods that some people use, and you might not like how some people talk about it, but to say that I don't want to be a feminist, I'm always blown away.

I just look at that and go, oh, isn't that internalized patriarchy in its own way?

It is, because I don't want to look like a bitch.

And I'll tell you, when I was growing up as a young adult, I didn't think I was a feminist either.

So my mom was a feminist.

My mom was not the kindest person as we have established, and she was very angry.

So my association as a child is like, oh, she's an angry woman.

And I'm like, I'm not an angry woman, and I don't want to be an angry woman.

So I am not an angry woman.

Right.

Until you Uncover that, like, all this medical research is only done on men and women's requests.

Medical requests are discounted.

And they tell you, oh, it's anxiety, or all these different things you uncover.

And then you just feel rage.

Like, unadulterled rage.

But anyway, when I was growing up, I didn't want to identify as, I'm an angry woman.

So I was like, I don't think I'm a feminist.

But then it's just.

I think it's just a funny story.

So I did this advanced certification of feminist coaching as part of my training, and I was like, I don't think I'm a feminist.

But all these things she's saying, like, how I live my life and how I make decisions, and, like, these are all my values.

And I just.

I don't know.

It must be like.

Like.

And then now I'm like, oh, no, my title is feminist marriage.

You have to, like, lead with that.

There was a time that I.

You would have asked me, and I would have said, no, I don't think so.

I think I would have been the same.

I think I would have been the same.

And it was just.

It's always really interesting, like, you say, like, bringing curiosity into how you look at things.

And I tell this story a lot about, like, you know, curiosity is so useful.

It's one of the things that you really taught me, in all honesty and coaching, is to be able to put things down and deal with the emotions that come up.

But consider the nuance and assume this is for your benefit, not for your, like, dismissal.

Yeah.

Because I think that for so long, growing up, it was like, amanda, you're wrong.

I'm smarter than you.

I'm right.

Be quiet, sit down, let the grownups talk kind of environment.

Right.

And so then as you get older and you start taking on your own beliefs, it's heady to believe something.

But then if somebody questions a belief, it's very challenging to sit in that unless you realize it's coming from a good place.

And it's coming from a place of, if this is for your growth, this is for your benefit.

I'm not even saying you can't think it.

I just want to explore it.

Yes.

But it's like that judgment is so strong in me.

And I think back to, you know, I. I tell this a lot, that when families, when they talk about, don't cry over spilt milk, I'm like, my family got angry over spilt water.

And I have evidence of this in the past year in dealing with my extended family.

So we are a result of where we're born and what we come through, and they are as well.

This isn't about blame, and I think important to hear that.

If you're listening to this, this isn't about, we're going to blame this person.

We're going to blame that person.

It's how do we move through this and create something different?

How do we move through this and create something different?

Is everything.

It is.

How we get through life is believing that we can get something different, believing that we can move through it and that we're not stuck in it.

I recently went through a depressive episode, and I'm big fan of being an advocate for mental health and talking about mental health and normalizing.

Talking about mental health.

And in that moment, I did not believe that I could get through it.

So just, oh, this is possible to get through this, and I could have something that is possible.

It sounds so simple when you say it, but it is so profound when it's not available to you, when you're like, I don't know about it.

I don't know about that.

And I always think listening to podcasts, reading books, like, having people in your mind say, yes, you can.

Here's how I did it.

Oh, I was there, too.

I had a dark night of this.

There was no light.

Here's where I found the flashlight.

And here.

Here's the end of the tunnel, which starts a new tunnel.

But that's okay, because you can handle that.

Thanks.

Right.

I just think that's so important.

And I love how you said it's not to blame anybody.

Like, we're all innocent and we're all guilty.

I have unconscious bias that I don't even know about.

Right.

As I sit in front of you, I. I know that I have it and it's unconscious.

And I'll uncover it when I bump up against it and be like, oh, yeah, I really.

That I didn't even know that was in there.

Right.

Oh, I defaulted to that.

Wow.

I didn't know that was in there.

So we're all innocent and we're all guilty.

And we can.

If we can hold that we're all innocent and we're all guilty.

And we can come to that with compassion, with kindness, or with consideration, whatever we want to call it, depending on the situation.

It just brings us so much relief.

Yeah, I completely agree.

Well, I mean, I guess, like, I look at all of this and I look at having an awareness of it, and I think.

You know what I think You've seen this too.

I know.

I see it a lot.

People will have an awareness.

They will see that they are doing this internalized blame, that they're blaming themselves for everything, but then they will blame themselves for blaming themselves for everything.

Oh, a hundred percent.

Yes.

Yes.

I shouldn't have those thoughts either.

I have these thoughts.

They're not helpful.

And then I judge myself for the thoughts that I'm having.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm curious for you.

What is your process for getting somebody out of that?

So sometimes, I mean, first of all, it varies, and there's always nuts.

So just in general, often I zoom out like we did in this conversation, and I'm like, what is the context we're having the thoughts in?

So when I am blaming myself.

So another thing that I used to do.

So I'm very enthusiastic.

Surprise.

Very enthusiastic.

And I have always been.

And so in work situations, I was underestimated my whole career.

Basically my whole career.

And it used to really bother me because I'm a nerd and I'm really smart, and I know that I'm really smart because I'm a nerd.

I also study a lot, so I know things.

And then I came to this point where I was like, they just don't care.

They can underestimate me, and then I'll be in a meeting and I'll give them this analysis, and they can be shocked and it'll be fine.

The reason I'm giving that example is I lived my whole life having that dynamic, and I never once considered the context it was happening in.

And I thought internalized blame.

I thought that people were judging me because I'm quirky, which I am, but don't like.

Women at work are underestimated at scale in millions every day.

And I had no sense of the context that I was in.

So when I'm coaching someone and they tell me this happened and that happened, whatever, one of the ways is to zoom all the way out and see, oh, is this also happening to millions of people?

Why is it happening?

What are the thoughts that we hold?

What are the cultural narratives that we have that.

That create that experience, not just for you, but for millions of people.

So now then we zoom back into you and we say, okay, so what a question I ask a lot is what else is also true?

And then we kind of explore that.

And sometimes I'm in the wrong.

Sometimes I should blame myself for something that I did that wasn't my best day or whatever.

But when I'm coaching someone that has this tendency towards internalized blame, the coaching is very simple and very difficult because I tell them, when in doubt, you should assume you're right.

I should assume it wasn't you.

You should assume the opposite.

And that seems like, oh my God, but isn't that arrogant?

Or isn't that like, like my humility or whatever?

And I'm like, the problem is most of the time it won't be you and you won't even go there or consider.

So I need you to feel really uncomfortable.

Do it on purpose.

Assume if it wasn't me, then what?

See what happens there and then report back and it's very uncomfortable.

I completely agree.

I completely agree.

I think that that's.

When people ask me, am I a narcissist?

I'm like, well, if you're asking me if you're a narcissist, the answer is no.

Right?

Yeah.

This is how you know, that's the litmus test.

If you're worried about how other people experience you, for sure is unlikely to be a problem.

And that being said, I always, I think the word is so overused.

So I think that it just, every time I hear somebody called a narcissist,.

I'm like, oh, okay.

It's tough because it's just, it's very much thrown out there as a black, white, yes, no, all or nothing kind of thinking.

And I'm like, the reality is we're all kind of narcissistic because we all think about how we feel all the time.

Yeah, we all have the focus on ourselves or the capacity for selfishness, which I think people, like you said, people give it an all or nothing that, oh, if I was self centered in this moment, do I have the official diagnosis?

And I think narcissism is this very specific set of behaviors.

And I think we just have to remember that we can all have moments, but that doesn't mean that's who you are.

And I also, and I know you believe this, as I do too.

I all.

I want to remind everybody that even though the name narcissist is like, we made it up, everything that we have a label for, like, I had depression, like I was sad.

And we call it depression, whatever.

It helps us to describe what's happening.

And in that way it's useful.

But when we use it like that, as a weapon towards someone, as a judgment towards someone or to ourselves, when we weaponize those labels, we, I just want to like stop and say we made it all up.

Those labels are like, what else?

Wish I had Your bell.

Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing.

Maggie has a bell when she coaches people and when they say things that she's like, this is amazing.

This is for your good.

This is like the.

Aha.

She rings it.

But we had to turn it off because it was messing with our sound on the podcast.

So she can't do it for you today.

Maybe I'll add it, but I probably won't because I'm not great at editing my podcast.

We'll do, we'll, we'll make it.

Yeah.

But I think it's to your point.

I do think that one of the things that I talk about a lot with my clients, in all honesty, is even one of the things that I talk about them is what is the purpose of the blame?

Because what, what job is it doing?

And we want to really look at it right.

Because even if I do say it was my fault, I'm like, what is the purpose of it?

Who does it help?

And oftentimes it's pursuing this like belief of perfection.

And a lot of times people can't even label what the perfection is.

I'll ask them what does.

What does perfect in this scenario look like?

And they don't know what they're thinking is, it's just not how I did it.

And it's really interesting.

And we have doubt and we have fear that comes up in that moment.

And sometimes I think it's also just our go to response when we feel doubt and we feel fear and that shame sometimes is arriving just to keep us safe.

And it's like, go back in the cave.

Yeah.

I think it, it's to keep us safe for us.

Yes.

But I also think it's a way to keep us quiet, to continue the cultural narratives as they are.

Because when, when we, when we blame ourselves for humaning.

When humaning is wrong.

Right.

And we all human can't get out of that.

A bear is a bear, an alligator is an alligator, a spider's a spider.

And we're human.

That's not going away as far as we know.

As far as we know that current level of.

And then so.

But when we're distracted by the self doubt and the blame and looking over here, we're not looking at changing the infrastructure of how it's all set up.

We're just, we're constantly, especially as women, we're constantly trying to solve infrastructural problems at an individual level over and over again.

And it's.

And we have to survive in the situations we're in, whether it's a job or a relationship, whatever.

And so we do what we can from where we are, right?

And I do want to say that when you look at, like, I can't change my boss, or I can't change how the hospital works if you were gonna, or whatever, what I want to say is there's this really fun story on YouTube.

We used to use it in our HR videos and our trainings.

And maybe you've seen it.

So maybe you've seen it, and maybe the people listening have seen it, but it's a little kid throwing starfishes into the ocean.

And the whole ocean, the whole beach is just full of starfishes.

And little kids just there, like, throwing them in, throwing them in.

And somebody walks by and they say, you know, why?

You know, you're not gonna make a difference.

Look at how many hundreds of fish are here.

And then the kid throws another one back in water.

I made a difference for that one.

Ah, I love that.

And I've been really present, as in my country, which is the United States, as we go through a really dark time in my lifetime.

Things have been dark.

Things will always have darkness in them as humans.

But as we go through a really difficult time in the present, I've thought a lot about hopelessness.

And it's like, oh, it seems too big.

You know what?

We gotta starfish that.

You just gotta.

You know what, what can we do today?

We're gonna starfish it.

That's it.

I love that.

I love that.

I was literally just having this conversation with the client before we jumped on this call, and she was just saying to me how she.

She struggles with feeling like what she's doing is enough.

And that shows up everywhere, all the time.

It's really common, right?

It's really common for women.

And I was saying to her, when it comes to value, I said, what's the value of a baby?

They can't walk, they can't talk, they can't do anything.

In fact, you have to take care of everything.

And she's like, that's different.

I'm like, why?

And then if you look at it, if I smile at somebody today and that smile impacts them, and then they're able to attend to something in their life that little bit differently.

And just that.

That whole ripple effect of what that does, what's the value of that?

It's infinite.

Yes, it's infinite.

And so this idea that we need to be perfect is a patriarchal construct.

I think that men suffer as much as women do inside of that agree 100%.

It's hurting all of us.

Hurting all of us.

Yep.

And it's being continued on through parts of our life that didn't exist before.

Like, you know, social media, phones, just the ability to videotape everything, for people to be able to put filters on things.

Now we're pulling in.

AI.

It is revolutionary to decide that I'm not going to do that anymore.

Yes.

Oh, 100%.

Yeah.

The illusion of perfection.

It's an illusion.

It's always an illusion.

There is no such thing.

Unless you take the position that imperfect things are perfect and crooked is good.

And the bent branch of the tree is good.

And the lopsided cake is good because it's delicious and it's cake.

Right.

Like when you can see the beauty in the imperfection.

Like I used to love.

In the 90s, there was this thing called shabby chic, which is, like, decorated.

Yeah.

And it was.

The whole idea behind it, Shabby chic, was that you would see the rust on the chair or you'd see the paint chipping off of the wall or whatever.

And it was embracing that as, oh, the imperfections are what make it beautiful.

Then you can go to perfect there.

But anything else, it's just a recipe for disappointment.

Yeah.

And it's all made up anyways.

If you think about when I talk to people, and I'm sure you do do this as well, about their bodies, about beauty, it's not different than when you talk about how you are in the world, how you relate to people, how much money you make, what your family structure looks like.

How we view it today is not how we viewed it 20 years ago.

Certainly not how we viewed it 50 years ago or a hundred years ago.

And so we have to remember that.

Sometimes I think of it like this.

We're all going for average when we're trying to fit.

Ooh, that's another bell ringer.

I need to repeat that to myself.

We're going for average when we try to fit in.

And yet we feel such a compulsion to fit in.

Yeah.

And everything and how we look and how we talk and how we live our lives, we are all aiming for average.

And if you know that, if you see that, you can't really unsee it.

Because the innovators, the people that are the leaders, are not average.

They're different.

Yes.

There was a time when having a big butt was not considered to be attractive.

And then Beyonce came along.

Yeah.

And JLo.

And JLo.

And all of a sudden having a big.

Now people get Implants, like, yes.

And it's just so interesting to me.

And now we all have these.

I was watching this thing about the 90s, and I was like, oh, wish we could go back to the 90s where people had normal teeth.

Because, like, everybody has veneers.

Oh, my goodness.

I never even thought about that.

But, yes, then veneers came out, and now everyone must have them.

Everybody has perfect teeth.

But, like, they were talking about, like, Anna.

I'm going to say her name wrong, Packin.

But I started watching True Blood again recently, and I was like, yeah, nobody in there has perfect teeth.

And it's just so fascinating to watch that and to understand that the way that we judge ourselves is based on what we see and that there's a confirmation of other people are doing it better than me.

That is in that internalized blame.

And so then that's coming through.

How we see ourselves and how we see ourselves as not the truth.

How we see ourselves is not the truth.

That's just.

We need to just take a beat.

It's how we see ourselves.

I don't know for everybody, but for me, I am often the harshest view of myself.

I'll do 10 things right, and I'll be like, oh, but I got that one thing wrong, right?

So that is not the truth.

And also, there is no single truth.

I did get that thing wrong, and that was not good.

And I need to make amends or fix it or figure it out.

But there's also these other nine truths that are also true.

It's like, as a society, we've gone, at least in sort of modern Westernized culture.

Like, so I'm in the United States.

So we've gone very binary, right?

Computers, zeros and ones, black and white, yes and no.

And then the sound bite.

If you can't understand it in a minute, then now we're the understanding.

But that's not really real, right?

So what you think about yourself includes the good, includes the bad, includes the ridiculous and the wonder.

It includes all of it.

And all of it is good.

I like to say all of you is welcome here.

All of it.

Yeah.

What if your bad parts are also your good parts?

And even when you're bad, it's good.

Just really playing with that idea is.

It's something you really taught to me.

And I have to give you credit for that, because for so long, I just viewed myself as bad.

I know I'm, like, gonna cry about it, but like I did for years, and.

And I viewed her as a treasure.

Still do and it's for real.

Like, I think people listen to me coach and maybe even listen to this podcast and think, oh, well, you know,.

It wasn't that bad.

It wasn't that bad.

I'm like, it was really bad.

Like, I was really messed up and I could not turn it around.

It was just so in me.

And so I think it's why I'm, like, passionate about it and why what you wrote spoke to me so deeply.

Because I know that this is something we really worked on.

Like, what if it's not that bad?

Like, honestly, the example that I give when I'm teaching stuff about this is, so I'm Cuban and I'm a Leo.

So I am stubborn.

Stubborn is my middle name.

Being stubborn is not always a good thing, because when I think something is the right thing thing, I will hold it like a terrier puppy, and I will not let that go.

Right.

So sometimes that causes problems and isn't good.

But that same stubbornness, which can sometimes be a problem, also gives me that stick to itiveness, that commitment of, like, no, I'm going to figure this out.

I'm going to do it.

I'm going to.

I'm going to keep going.

That's the face.

The other face of that stubbornness is the ability to keep going when things got hard.

And I wouldn't trade it.

I'm willing to have the annoyance of the times when my friends roll their eyes or whatever to have the other part.

And I think we.

It's so easy to forget that.

Yeah, it's both.

It's yes, and.

And it's understanding that lots of people won't be for you.

And yet you also block yourself from the people that are for you when you're telling yourself that how you are is not the way that you should be.

And.

And also, it's just so interesting, even talking about this and talking about that internalized blame and needing to be small and needing to be quiet.

And then if you're the kind of person that intrinsically does want to speak up, that actually does have an opinion, that wants their voice to be heard, then the shame that you feel when you do and how you can be so rejected and how it can be so difficult, that's a real experience.

I coach a lot of women that have that experience.

I'm sure you do as well.

So many of my clients have come to calls and been like, well, I was told I was bossy when I grew up.

And I'm like, yeah, what the hell, man?

Boys aren't called bossy.

Only girls.

Yeah.

Why is a man a leader?

Right, Right.

No woman is bossy.

What is that?

Yeah.

So then we just get up all in our feelings, and we're trying to control things.

We can't.

And we're just.

It's so messy, and it's so difficult, and we just are so challenged, and being around people is so difficult, and so we stop being around people, and it just.

It really makes us a version of ourselves that not only do we not enjoy, but that we don't get to really be ourselves at all.

And then when you talk about that authenticity, I'm like, there you have it.

Yeah, there is so.

It's so protective, right.

When we're not being authentic or we're worried about, oh, what does authentic look like?

Or whatever we are in a lot of situations where being authentic is not good, where we must present the way we're expected to present in that context.

And there is a price to pay if you authentically say something that you believe in.

I remember I've had a variety of bosses over the years, and some of them have been amazing.

Not so much.

And there.

And I've were better or worse because that stubbornness thing.

I've always been that person who speaks truth to power.

I just.

I don't have the button that turns that off, and sometimes that has gotten me into trouble.

So I disagreed very passionately about something that my boss at the time was doing.

And I came home and I told my husband and this, this, and this.

And my husband looked at me and said, you have to remember that even if the emperor is wearing no clothes, still the emperor.

Right, Right.

Oh, my God, your husband's so great.

He's the best.

It just like, this one sentence.

I was like, oh, I see what you mean.

So basically, I should just let it fail, right?

Like, it was something that was like, I knew how that story was gonna end, and I was trying to avoid that.

I was like, oh, so I just need to just really be quiet.

He's like, probably that's what you need to do.

It's a hard skill to be quiet, man.

So that's why, like, the authenticity piece, right?

Like, it's like we, like, we judge ourselves.

Oh, I'm not authentic.

And I don't know.

And I'm like, I did something bad.

Oh, you did a sister five girl, and you did it to survive.

And there's, like.

You say, it's not all or nothing.

It's not black and white.

You could be.

I always say to My clients that are like, they're so mad at themselves because they can't speak up.

I'm like, well, from somebody who does speak up all the time, let me tell you, on that side of the fence is when you're burning bridges and pissing people off and creating all kinds of chaos, and afterwards you're like, that could have been avoided if I would have been quiet.

As someone who's done both, like, I've learned over time to be a more diplomatic person.

And I've learned, oh, like you said, like, what is the purpose?

What is the purpose of me sharing here?

Is it worth it?

Is it worth the price that I'm gonna pay if I do it?

And times it just isn't.

And it's a hard lesson to learn.

Yeah.

And also, I do just love the idea of, like, nothing has gone wrong here.

This is just the human experience.

It is meant to be messy.

It's always gonna be messy.

No matter what you do, you won't avoid the mess.

And so, yes, you can learn things about yourself and you can go, oh, okay, I know what happened there.

Like, I think about explicitly something that happened to me this year only a few months ago where I got very angry and I yelled in a very public setting.

And I look back on it and I'm like, well, I was protecting my child.

And I saw something that was deeply not okay, that touched on a major trauma for me.

And I did the best I could in that moment.

And was it perfect?

No.

Was it messy?

Yes.

Did other people judge me?

Absolutely.

Did I burn some bridges?

I really did.

But also, it's human.

Yeah.

And I'm not going to sit there and beat the shit out of myself for it.

Because there's no value.

Yeah.

There's no value in you beating yourself up over being human.

Because the human part is not going to go away.

Because the human part also has been.

It's created in you from so many different things.

It's like the pain that you experience, the things that have happened to you, they shape you and you grow around them and you can do the best you can, but you don't know what's going to touch on that.

You don't know when that's going to come up.

You don't know when it's going to go beep and you're going to be like full blown in emotion that you just have a very difficult time controlling.

That doesn't mean anything about you.

It's just, oh, that's interesting.

I had to lear learn that also.

If that burns a bridge, the problem was the person on the other side of that bridge.

I totally agree.

If we don't have space to be human with other people, then it's just something interesting to.

To notice what you're describing.

One of my favorite concepts from Eckhart Tolle.

Yeah.

Power of Now.

Yeah.

And lots of other amazing books.

And he called it the Pain Body.

So whenever you have a disproportional response, Right.

This thing happened and I lost it.

Right.

It's not about that one thing.

It's about every other time that thing has ever happened.

And it comes up in that moment.

So it's like it's poking on a wound, right?

Yeah.

So if we can't regroup around, hey, you know, that poked on a wound and I messed up.

And here's what happened.

Now, sometimes we don't want that either because that situation poked on a wound that we don't want to be in relationship with anymore.

Right.

Like, sometimes it's not about even making amends.

Oh, that showed me the limit to which I can go in this situation or with these people or in this context.

Yes.

Yeah, I agree.

And I think it's just the reason why I bring it up is just to pull in the humanness of this, which I'm like, there's no destination to get to here.

This is a practice.

It's an exploration.

It's the opportunity to know yourself better versus judge yourself and blame yourself.

And it's interesting because it can go two ways.

I know that, for instance, my grandmother, she was in a war camp in Poland when she was like a young teenager.

And so she's in a work camp.

And you can imagine what that was like.

Abused wholeheartedly, pulled away from her family, was a refugee in Canada, was cleaning houses.

My other grandmother knew her, called her a thief.

Like, so interesting, like things that you see happening today.

I'm like, just so we all know that happened then too.

Very interesting.

We all.

There's a lot of self righteousness that goes on here.

And I'm like, it's a lot of nuance growing up in a place like that and coming here.

And a lot of us come from families like that, and I do.

And then she got pregnant.

I guarantee that was like a whole messy situation.

Alcoholic abuse.

My dad grew up in that home.

And I look at how all the different siblings handled it, and it's just very interesting to me.

I'm like, none of it is black or white.

It's not about blame.

I don't blame My parents, I don't look at the things that they've done and be like, oh, they were awful parents.

I look at it and go, this is what happened.

And they were doing their best, but it also really wasn't what I needed or very kind or caring or actually good.

And so I also take that on, and it's finding that nuance.

I just think it's so important to understand that we will also.

We will do things to our kids, and they will have stories to tell about us, and it's okay.

Life is messy.

You were allowed to live in the mess.

I don't know.

Just to me, it's so important to hear that.

Okay, so now we're going to have a moment of levity, because there's this TV show.

It's called Heated Rivalry.

It's Canadian.

Yes, I have heard, and I'm obsessed with it.

And one of the actors, Hudson Williams, did an interview, and he said, life is inherently embarrassing.

They were asking him some questions, and his answer was, life is inherently embarrassing, so I don't worry about it too much.

And whatever.

He kept going.

And I was like, wait a minute.

Inherently.

And I'm a person.

I will dance at a table sober.

I'm.

I have a very high tolerance for what other people would consider embarrassing behavior.

It's very difficult to get me to like that.

Oh, that would probably be embarrassing.

It's very far.

But he said that, and I was like, life is inherently embarrassing, so I can just, like, expect to be embarrassed.

It just blew my mind.

And that's how I got a heated rivalry reference into this podcast, which is so much.

I haven't watched it yet, so I'll have to.

I'll have to watch it.

Epic love story, anyway.

Well, I know you.

I know you love love, which is one of my favorite things about you.

I do.

It's so fascinating because as a marriage coach, I see the darkest side of relationships, but I also see the lightest and brightest and most beautiful side.

When it can be healed and it can.

People can come together, I get to be a witness to that.

And then I also sometimes witness when it's like, oh, no, no, this.

This is.

This is never going to be good.

Like, it wasn't good then, it's not good now.

It won't be good later.

Somebody has to tell you.

And sometimes people will hire me, and we'll work a little bit together, and I'll be like, do you just need someone to tell you that it's okay that you're done?

Because here's what I see.

Long list of things.

Here are all the things you've tried.

Here's the things I've witnessed.

You try.

You can do that.

Yes.

Isn't that the truth?

I've also done both.

It's.

I think this is done, and it's okay.

It's okay to be done.

Yeah.

This is not feeding anybody anything good at this point.

And in relationships, internalized blame in relationships is almost a little bit like we gaslight ourselves.

Like, oh, maybe I can fix it.

Maybe I could do something else.

And listen, I'm a big believer again, in personal responsibility and going, taking the first step.

I literally teach that for a living.

But there is a difference, again, between where are my choices?

And here's how I'm going to exercise my power in this situation versus, oh, it's my fault.

So I have to live this way with this person who's not honoring my values, who's not prioritizing me, who's not demonstrating love in the way that I want to be loved.

There are no, like, we're all innocent and guilty.

Like I said earlier, it could be the thing.

They just don't love you the way you want to be loved.

And there doesn't have to be a villain here.

Yeah.

And it's such a nuanced thing.

And that's why I think coaching is so valuable.

Coaching with somebody like Maggie, coaching with somebody like me, that's where you have that opportunity to explore all of this.

Learn how to trust yourself, trust your instincts, Understand where your limits are.

Understand, like, where you can stop blaming, but stopping blaming, that is so powerful, so incredibly powerful.

And so what do we do in its place?

We just ask what else is also true.

Like, it doesn't mean that if you've never considered yourself the heroine of your own own story, that you have to suddenly think amazing things on command.

Hey, I'm gonna default.

My coaches told me, what if it's not me?

Ask that question.

If it's not me, what else could it be?

You can literally suffer so many situations at work, at home, family, friends, whatever.

Yeah, Yeah, I love that.

I don't know if I told you this story, but I've told it on this podcast before where I had something happen and somebody got really upset with me when I was teaching a spin class and I was talking to my dad afterwards because everyone had come up to me after the class, except for this one person, and said, that really had nothing to do with you.

Like that.

That reaction was unwarranted.

Like, I don't know what was going on for her, but that was not you.

That was her.

And I said to my dad, I was like, you know, I'm like, dad, my first reaction, my initial reaction is always, what did I do?

I did something wrong.

And then he looks at me and goes, my reaction is completely the opposite.

I was like, you did something wrong.

I'm fine.

This is it.

This is.

That's the place we want to get to.

And literally, I do sometimes ask, what would a white dude say about this?

Like, if somebody's really stuck.

I was coaching somebody once.

She was asking for a raise, and we had been going back and forth, and she didn't know how to do it, and she would have to present to a board.

It was like a very, like, senior level C suite kind of thing.

And after 20 minutes, I was like, wait, what would a male execute in this scenario?

And I kid you not, that woman in five minutes was like, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this.

I'm like, oh,.

Go do that.

Go do that.

Did she get the raise?

I don't remember.

She had to.

Like, like, that's just the truth.

It's just not the point.

But I did.

I was curious.

Yeah, she had to present.

I know that in the end, she got a package.

There was.

There was a lot going on, but she advocated for herself in a much more powerful way, which.

That was the point.

Yeah, I completely agree.

I love that reframe.

And I hope that somebody listening to this can take these things and.

And just put one piece of them in action.

It doesn't.

Even if you just take what Maggie said, What if it isn't my fault?

Yeah.

And what would a straight white guy do?

Whatever it is.

So that you can start reframing how you think about it.

Because just remembering that all your thoughts are optional.

None of them are the truth.

So this is an exercise in choosing thoughts that allow you to have the life experience that you want to have.

I love that you said all your thoughts are optional because I think it's so easy to forget that they feel like they're so important, and they feel like they're set in stone, and they feel like, no, but not this one, Amanda.

Not this one.

This one must be true.

Right?

All go through that.

It's like I coach myself on stuff that I coach other people on.

I'm like, oh, I just coached on that yesterday.

How about that?

Let me turn it towards me.

But years ago, I was coaching someone who had a rampage of thoughts.

It was so intense, I might have told you this story before, too, but it just is such a useful tool.

So to rampage, it just felt like they weren't in control of their brain.

That felt like they were assaulting them.

It was like that kind of vibe.

And I really was thinking how.

What's the pattern interrupt for this?

Pattern interrupts.

Like, we use a lot of different ones in psychology.

One time, I had somebody gobble up their thoughts with a Pac Man.

That's hilarious.

And that's what would happen if you have these thoughts and they felt so intense and heavy.

And then little Pac man would be like, she needed humor.

But this person.

Humor was, like, not enough.

It couldn't.

It didn't go with them.

And so I.

But when we fight against it, it gets bigger.

So we can't fight against it.

When we can't ignore it, we can't push it away.

Like, there's a bunch of things we can't do that it just won't be a helpful intervention.

So I was like, what are we gonna do?

And I came up with, thank you.

I hear you.

That may or may not be true.

No, next week, I told my client, this is what you're gonna do.

You're gonna say, thank you.

I hear you.

That may or may not be true.

An incessant amount of time.

An unlimited amount of time every day, like, over and over and over, whenever, like, all the thoughts.

Thank you.

I hear you.

Let me not be true.

What does that do?

It doesn't fight against it, so it can't get bigger.

Like a big wave in the ocean that tries to overtake everything.

So thank you.

I hear you.

You get to neutral.

You get to a space as close to neutral as you can.

I hear you.

And then you introduce that may or may not be true.

It gives you long enough to then ask the question, yeah, what else is also true?

What could be going on?

It gets you to, like, you're not enveloped by the rampage of thoughts, and you can go a new place.

And that one, I do know how it ended, because that person went for a week.

An incessant unlimited amount of time.

And I'll never forget the next session.

It was a guy that I was coaching at the time, and he comes onto the call and he says, I don't know what voodoo you did on me, but I feel amazing.

And I haven't had one of those attacks, like, in days.

And I was like, you're gonna keep doing this until whenever you need it.

Yeah.

But it's gonna happen less because you're doing this.

Yeah, yeah.

That's huge.

Because if you do notice that you're blaming yourself and you're blaming yourself, and you're blaming yourself, and you're blaming yourself for blaming yourself, this is an interrupt that you.

That will really help you.

Yeah.

And if somebody's listening and you want to pac man it, you can pick your favorite thing.

And if somebody's listening and you really need, like, it feels really emotionally intense.

That's just a very useful, very simple, but very powerful way to.

Yeah, I agree.

Any way that you can.

Like, not arguing with the thoughts is just really important.

The analogy I always use is I'm like, if you get in a tug of war with a big dog, like, if you pick up the rope, he's going to tug harder and harder.

And like, I used to have a great day.

And I'm like, he won.

I did not win.

The dog will always win.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A hundred.

Yeah, I can see it.

And when you, like, tug on a thought that is, like, feeling, it creates a lot of strong emotion.

Any way that you can just release the thought is what you want to do.

That's such a great visual because not only will it pull back in this idea of the thought, but it'll go feral.

It'll escalate.

It's being.

It'll be like, oh, you're pulling against me.

I'm going to bite harder and pull harder, and I'm gonna get more vicious about it.

Now we're in a fight.

Now we're in a fight, and now I have to defend myself.

So now it's like, it's on.

So.

Yeah.

And it's like, can you just.

Is there a way to loosen the grip?

Anything that loosens the grip is a good idea.

Yeah.

I love that.

Maggie, I could talk to you for, like, many more hours about, but is there anything you want to leave anybody with here on the podcast?

Before we go, any final words?

The number one thing that I would want everyone who hears this to know is, you have choices.

That's my bottom line.

I've been thinking about this a lot because I teach a lot of different concepts.

We talked about a bunch of them here.

But if you can remember, I have choices, and then ask yourself, what is my choice here?

It will change your life like nothing else.

Because most of the times you get stuck in bad situations, situations that harm us and all that stuff.

It's because we get amnesia that we have choices.

We don't think we have them.

We don't see them.

They're not Immediately apparent.

And then we stay in situations past their expiration date.

So the one number one thing is I have choices.

What are my choices here?

Yeah, I love that.

That's amazing.

Okay.

If somebody wants to get to know you better, if they want to follow you, if they want to work with you, where should they find you?

So my website is maggiere.com m a g g I e r e y e s dot com.

You can find always whatever I'm doing in the world there.

That's really the best place to go.

Who knows what will happen with social media?

I don't know.

I'm on all the social medias.

You can find me on all of them.

Except TikTok.

I'm not a tiktoker, but that's the best place to go.

And I have a podcast as well.

So if you like listening to podcasts, it's called the Marriage Life Coach podcast.

That there's a link to that on the website or you can look for it anywhere that you.

Wherever you listen to this podcast, you can find it there too.

I love it.

And just so you know, Maggie also wrote a really amazing book.

Oh, my gosh.

Called Questions for Couples.

Yes.

And so check that out as well.

You can find those links, I'm sure, on her website and on her social media channels.

I highly encourage you to look Maggie up, follow her.

She is a brilliant human being, an amazing coach.

Maggie, such a great friend.

Thank you so much for being here today.

It was so much fun.

Thank you for inviting me.

Yeah, it was my pleasure.

I'm so glad you could do it.

All right, everyone, that's it for now and we'll see y' all next week.

See ya next time.

Bye.

Thanks so much for listening today.

If this podcast is helping you, please follow wherever you listen and consider leaving a review.

It truly helps, helps this community grow and allows me to support more women like you.

I'm excited to see you back here next week with a brand new episode.

Until then, take care, friend.